Pesky Piper Picks on Prickly Pastors, etc.
Mar 3rd, 2008 by John
UPDATE: John Piper has clarified his writing quoted below on his blog “Desiring God.” I noticed, however, that John Piper did not address his use of the verb “excommunicated.”
I am grateful for Piper’s clarification, but do not agree with his idea of theological homogeneity at a higher educational institution (like a college or seminary).
* * * * * * * * *
Fasten your ‘heretic ’ seatbelts, friends, because turbulence is just ahead. Luckily John Wesley, D.L. Moody and Charles Finney and so many other Christian leaders escaped the fascinatingly and keenly discerning words of Pastor Piper.
Yes, John Piper, Protestant Guru of USAmerican Classical Deteminists, has spoken.
Writing on the subject of Arminianism, John Piper asks, “But how
should we regard these errors in relationship to the teaching office
of the church and other institutions?” (emphasis mine)
Answering his own question, Piper writes: “Here’s my rule of thumb: the more responsible a person is to shape the thoughts of others about God, the less Arminianism should be tolerated. Therefore church members should not be excommunicated for this view but elders and pastors and seminary and college teachers should be expected to hold the more fully biblical view of grace.” (emphasis mine)
“Do you separate from a denomination that allows pastors and seminary teachers to believe and teach this error? You can. We do. Oh, how we need discernment concerning how helpful you might be to the cause of
Christ and his truth.”
Did Piper actually use the word “excommunicated” in the direction of elders, pastors, college and seminary professors? I’m probably on his list, then. This is absolutely unbelievable. Who does Piper think he is?
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/2008/ 2637_How_I_Distinguish_Between_the_Gospel_and_False_Gospels/
Popularity: 46% [?]
Wow, that seems like it could be a pretty harmful attitude. I’m pretty sure the NT authors had some thoughts about being divisive and quarrelsome. What exactly would Piper say is the issue worth splitting over? Arminianism does not teach that salvation is earned by human effort. It does not change the command to make disciples by teaching and leading people in growth and community. A Calvinist wouldn’t think that is changes a person’s salvation since that’s already decided anyway.
So what’s the all-important issue? That it makes you uncomfortable to hear a teacher speak about the alternate view? A think when a person spends a great deal of his time in a certain field (theology) and in a certain topic (Calvinism), he or she can begin to inflate its importance.
Maybe the church needs to stop drawing lines in the sand. There will always be doctrinal arguments, but if the church doesn’t know how to love it’s own brothers and sisters and how to love people outside of the church, then what does it matter? It’s just a bunch of theologians flapping their jaws.
This makes me so angry. I just don’t know what to do with pastors like this. How can they be so close-minded about an issue like this. But the bigger question is, where am I like this? Are there ways where I do this to other people in more subtle–but equally hurtful–ways?
“but elders and pastors and seminary and college teachers should be expected to hold the more fully biblical view of grace.”
egads! whenever I hear the words “biblical view” my ears burn and warning sirens sound, because that inevitably means THEIR view!
-jeremy
Ben,
If some Christian leaders couldn’t draw lines in the sand, they’d have nothing to do. All they can do is criticize others from their positions of alleged theological certainty, and without that, they offer nothing, nada, zippo, zero. I don’t think Piper is one of those leaders, but Piper has to let go of this obsession of his to play the arbiter of (Calvinistic) “truth” for ALL Christian leaders.
Danny,
I appreciate your candor. I’m sure I have logs in my eyes at times as I try to get the dust out of others’ eyes. Yet, to bring up *excommunication* around the issues of Arminianism versus Calvinism. Come on! This is so moronic!
Jeremy,
Bingo, my man! The *biblical* view is always the view of the one who is “more fully “biblical.* Doesn’t it make you want to puke? The unfettered arrogance of some masquerading as defending the faith is reaching heinous proportions in the U.S. of A. It is pathetic if anything at all. Does not Piper realize that he is opening a door to a form of a 21st century theological/community-destroying Inquisition? Paul warned that if anyone by promoting factionalism destroys “the temple” that the Spirit is building, watch out!
Wasn’t John Piper totally discredited when he said the “ass” word? I don’t think we have to listen to a word he says anymore…
http://tobyneal.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/piper-states-god-kicks-our-ass/
“Do you separate from a denomination that allows pastors and seminary teachers to believe and teach this error? You can. We do.”
Yes, please do. It would be much more helpful if you were all lumped over in some group that I wouldn’t bother ever visiting on a Sunday morning or indeed any other time
Sue,
For those still stuck in the “who’s in/who’s out” mentality and believe they are the prosecuter, judge and jury on all the rest of humanity, I am with you…that’s one group I’d like to be OUT of.
Sadly, I’m not surprised to hear this from John Piper. I think if I were someone worth excommunicating, I’d be on his list as well. I don’t know if I’m Armenian (I’m probably Open theist) but I’m sure not as Calvanist as Piper would like me to be. I have a huge respect for Piper, he usually tries his darndest to be respectful to those with whom he disagrees but this post is just unsettling. I agree with you, I am glad John Wesley isn’t around… or maybe it’d be better. He’d probably have a pretty strong retort. Good post John!
He’s a Pied Piper I certainly will not follow. One wonders if this is the early stages of dementia or the final stages of TRdom.
Wes,
Thanks for commenting. I, too, think Piper has offered much that is good and edifying to the church at large. I wish he wouldn’t do these strident things.
Bill,
I am amazed that Piper has such a large, devoted following when he *ex cathedra* writes off a huge segment of the Church. It is appalling.
I used to listen to Piper and to Mark Driscoll. I looked at it like talking over a fence. Its quite possible to do until someone builds the fence too high to see over.
Just what we need, a bunch of bitter excommunicated church leaders. By the way, is it wise to tell others that it is only the church leaders and teachers that ’shape the thoughts of others about God’. I thought that was something that started at birth. Church members are exponentially more influencial in shaping other’s thoughts about God.
My previous comment was more motivated by anger than grace - and I apologize for it. Piper’s statements (the I35 bridge collapse as an example) have been known to wind me up, and as an Arminian, this one caused me to react - rather than to breath deeply and pray.
Piper has clarifiendhis statement. Though I do find this paragraph rather amusing:
Perhaps as I mature, I’ll move from Arminius to Calvin. (Though others fear the changes of my maturing are slim to non-existent.)
Excellent thought and post brother.
It is very encouraging to me and challenging to say the least.
I want to thank you for it.
I pray God’s blessing on your life in every aspect.
In Him,
Kinney Mabry
Preacherman,
You too have the gift of encouragment.
God bless you today.
John Frye
Does, “I am of Calvin,” ring a bell? I agree that factionalism, sectarianism, or whatever you want to call it in the name of “truth” is the greater mistake. Personally I think that unity among brothers was more important to Jesus.
Grace,
I do hear that familiar ring
Love and unity was what Jesus prayed for…not lock-step theological sameness.
John,
Sorry that Piper wrote or think this. We don’t need it, and it makes them a sect among us, or are they trying to make the rest of us a sect?
Glad you speak out on it, and hope other leaders do so as well.
Ted,
It is an unfortunate stance that Piper has taken…to sow the seed that a massive segment of Christian leaders are to somehow to be “excommunicated.” Again, I ask, “Who does he think he is?”
Doesn’t he know that factionalism is a sin?
Bill (#14),
I appreciate your sensitivity to the Spirit and to Christian love and unity. God bless you, Brother.
On a smaller scale, my wife and I once had someone reply to a remark we made about a theological point with the answer, well that’s because you think like an artist (we are both artists), but we think BIBLICALLY.
Now what does that mean.
DR,
I’m not sure what that means. But I venture that some Christians have no category for people like you and your wife. For them it’s like, “Artists thinking biblically?! Why, that’s an oxymoron!”
N.T. Wright recently spoke at the National Pastors Convention and commented that it will be the Christian artists who lead the church in the Western world out of the mess it is in. You and your wife have a high calling. God bless you!
[...] a former BGC member, and John Frye have responded to the (at least) awkward views of John Piper: Pesky pastors. I will be responding to Piper’s counsel someday. 8. If Jesus walked our streets. (HT: MDG) [...]
Hi John, Came here from the JesusCreed. I think excommunicated is the wrong word, and seriously so - to excommunicate someone is to say they are not even a Christian. For me, the bigger question is - should those who teach/lead in the church be held to a higher standard than those who don’t? Piper naturally thinks this means they should not be Arminian, but wouldn’t a dogmatic Aminian (or is this an oxymoron?
) say these teacher/leaders shouldn’t be Calvinist? Thanks for posting.
Bill Crawford,
I have no problem with John Piper wanting to toot the horn of classical determinism (Calvinism), but with you, I recoil at the term “excommunicated” for those persuaded toward Arminianism. I wish he’d publicly retract the unfortunate word he used. He doesn’t mention it in his follow-up “explanation.” Too many are using the terms “heresy” and “excommunicated” way too loosely these days. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
I’m not a huge Piper fan, but after reading his clarification i think his position makes sense. I am a graduate of a weslyan/arminian college and it was helpful while there to know what their confessional stance was and the perspective from which learning about and worshipping God would be approached. I also went to a presbytarian/reformed high school and was taught about God from the Westminster Confession and a Calvinist perspective - it was helpful to know the views of the institution overall.
Now…I don’t think that at higher education instutions that all faculty should be required to adhere to a specific confessional position, probably only those who are going to teach bible/doctrine classes. I mean, really, what does it matter whether the Latin professor is Calvinist or Arminean???
Rachel,
Great question at the end of your comment. Again, I have no problem with Piper wanting a doctrinal conformity in an institution–that happens a lot. It’s the use of highly perjorative terms like “excommunicated” for those of other positions yet who are clearly children of God through faith in Jesus Christ that I think he needs to be careful in using. Thanks for commenting.
Hey John - Seems to me that Piper’s isolation is having its affect. When you hole up 24/7 in a lonely study and read nothing but the ESV and Puritan devotional texts emerging only occasionally to take the pulpit, your perspectives narrow, your sense of self-importance expands and the noise of the critics outside becomes evidence of the comfirmation of persecution. Do theologians sometimes need psychotherapy?
Ken Kemp,
Could there be such a thing as pathological theology? If there is, maybe some leaders do need de-programming. It’s an interesting thought. I don’t know what burr gets in Piper’s pants that makes him be so strident and condemnatory.
Hi John, I linked here from Jesus Creed. Earlier today, I listened to a lecture by J.I. Packer on Richard Baxter. His introduction included the following words: “Think against me until you see reason to think with me. I’m not trying to indoctrinate or browbeat; I’m trying to educate.”
I must say that I’m more in sympathy with Dr. Packer’s philosophy of education than Dr. Piper’s.
Elliot,
Great quote. I’m with you.
Sam (#14),
Very provocative thoughts. Thank you.
I don’t have a lot to say except that I used to listen to John Piper from his website and ‘tried’ reading his books. I always came away feeling like I would never measure up and maybe not even get into Heaven. Guilt heaped upon guilt. I would doubt my salvation every time I would read his writings. I finally refused to read anymore or listen anymore.
[...] You can read the rest of John Frye’s post here [...]
Marchien (#35),
It is amazing that a theology that claims to magnify the sovereign GRACE of God comes across as strident and judgmental. I don’t think it is God’s fault. It’s in the messenger(s).
Perhaps the best way to deal with contentious issues like this is with a little wry humor. I have a friend who wears a t-shirt with the words, “Predestined to be Arminian - By my own Free Will I am a Calvinist.” You can see his picture here: http://missionaryimpossible.blogspot.com/
Lighten up, people!
John,
Yes that is amazing isn’t it?
A far cry from all I learned sitting under Dr Matthews teaching and sitting ‘with’ him in his office as he so lovingly ministered to me and countless others. A stark contrast between the two.
No it is not God’s fault.
Marchien,
I never consciously thought of the contrast–you nailed it. There is a stark contrast between JP (at least as he comes across about those he disagrees with) and dear, intelligent Victor.