Comments on: Ellul’s book on Violence

By: John Frye

John Frye — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:43:54 +0000

Uto,
While the book is full of stimulating ideas, that one sentence really got me: “The Christian’s first act of non-violence is that he refrain from asking others to live as if they were Christians.” It is truly something to mull over.

By: John Frye

John Frye — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:41:55 +0000

Preacherman,

Wow, man, it sounds like you’re really cracking the books. I am glad you have a passion to learn. God belss you!

By: UTO

UTO — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:15:45 +0000

Thanks for this post. I look forward to exploring all of the books that you mention here. I humbly want to learn more. The quote about not asking non-Christians to live as Christians will take some digesting. Great post.

By: preacherman

preacherman — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:48:44 +0000

It sounds like such a wonderful book.
Thank you brother for the review.
I appreciate your opinions and ideas.
Right now I am doing a lot of reading on the emerging church and how to become more missional. Right now I am reading: “Everything Must Change”, by Brian McLaren
I am also reading: “Adventures in Missing The Point” by Brian McLaren and Tony Campolo.
Also Dan Kimballs book “The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations.”
“The Emerging Culture: Five Perspectives” edited by Leonard Sweet.
“Sunday Dinner: The Lord’s Supper and the Christian Life” by William Willimon.
“Releasing the Power of the Smaller Church” by Shaw McMullen.

I want to say that I have been enjoying reading all of these books. Each one is so full of information and great ideas on how to become more like Christ which is my desire more than anything else in life.
I hope you have a blessed week.
In Him,
Kinney Mabry

By: John Frye

John Frye — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:42:02 +0000

Steve,
Great questions. I don’t think Ellul was proposing that Gandhi would be wrong with his “tactic” had he faced Hitler or Stalin. I agree that obedience to Jesus and his Way whether it “works” or not is required.

Your opening questions raise what the two Bishops termed
“the irrationality of evil.” Evil is insane. According to Bishop John Rucyahana, it was the good government and social regulations imposed by Belgium that had the seeds of and led to the evil of the genocide in Rawanda, with pastors hacking people up. E-v-i-l.

By: steve

steve — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:54:10 +0000

This is a very interesting post with a lot to mull over. What do we make of Nazi Germany? Why did they embrace violence so easily? Why didn’t the a Christian ethic work in the German mind, a nation steeped in Christian culture, who’s national hero was Martin Luther? Was it buried in the aftermath of WWI and the retribution, hatred and chaos that ensued? Or does it go much deeper than that? I mean, just look at all the violence in Christiandom’s European history.

How much of the restraint in the south during the civil rights movement was due to a Christian ethic at work, and how much was due to the fact that the “whole world was watching”, so the Klan, with their burning crosses, couldn’t operate openly? After all, Martin Luther King was shot.

What happened in Rwanda, a country that was 90% Christian before the genocide of ‘94? Why was the Christian ethic abandoned so easily?

Here is another thought. Following Jesus in Matt 5:38-48 works regardless of the worldly outcome. Loving you enemy works even if that enemy still nails you to a cross. Gandhi’s tactics would have still be right, would have still worked, even if the British shot him. This is the “foolishness of the cross”, what the earth doesn’t understand.

I guess I am saying that we have to be careful not to measure what works in earthly ways. Otherwise people can point to instances where non violence doesn’t end in a favorable earthly outcome and then justify violence as a solution that does work. I am afraid many Christians justify violence on just that basis, because it works in earthly ways of thinking.

Think about this. If India was occupied by violent atheists instead of the British, would Gandhi still have used non violence as a tactic? Is there a danger in thinking of the Gospel as a tactic?

Blessings
steve

By: John Frye

John Frye — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:18:03 +0000

Sue,
There were many good sentences in Ellul’s book, but this one grabbed me the most. In view of many Christian power blocs who are trying to “take America back for God,” Ellul’s words are a hard slap of reality.

By: John Frye

John Frye — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:16:08 +0000

Denny,
It seems that with the allignment of a large segment of the USAmerican evangelical church with the political Right we are fast losing the Christian way in the world. It’s all about POWER in both the church and politics. The very opposite of the Jesus Way.
Thanks for commenting. I believe you’ll like Ellul’s book
John

By: Sue

Sue — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:52:21 +0000

“The Christian’s first act of non-violence is that he refrain from asking others to live as if they were Christians.”

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yes.

By: Denny Gunderson

Denny Gunderson — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 05:33:46 +0000

John–Thanks for the reminder from Ellul’s book re. (justified) violence.
I shall look for the book. I appreciate your willingness to go against the evangelical mainstream on this.